‘Cleared’ - Interview with Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland - Carroll County Comet

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Carroll County Comet Tuesday, January 14, 2025

‘Cleared’

7 letters delayed Allen’s conviction by five years

January 13, 2025

By Amy Graham-McCarty [email protected]

Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland spoke to the Carroll County Comet Friday, his first interview since the gag order was lifted in the Delphi double murder case. This is part of a continued series of first-hand perspectives from those closest to the case by journalist Amy Graham-McCarty.

Seven letters prolonged the investigation into the person responsible for killing Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

Written in red on a tip sheet with information on Tip #74 was the word “Cleared.” That one word allowed Richard Allen’s self-reported tip to be filed away until 2022. A year earlier, in 2021, Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland says, investigators circled back to review the nearly 20,000 tips received in the case.

Allen, of Delphi, was convicted and sentenced for the murders of Abby and Libby. He confessed more than 60 times to killing the girls.

For two years, McLeland, and later his team of deputy prosecutors Stacey Diener and James Luttrull, Jr., has remained tightlipped about the case considering a gag order placed in December 2022 by Special Judge Fran Gull. With the gag order lifted Dec. 20, 2024, he is allowed to speak.

After nearly a year of reviewing tips, Kathy Shank, a retired Division of Family and Children worker and investigative team volunteer, revisited Tip #74. Allen’s self-reported tip placed him on the Monon High Bridge on Feb. 13, 2017, the day the girls went missing. This tip had information from Allen that he saw three girls on the trail between 1:30 to 3:30 p.m. Allen told Indiana Conservation Officer Dan Dulin he was wearing clothing similar to a man recorded by Libby following the girls across the bridge and instructing them to go “Down the hill.” That man was dubbed “Bridge Guy.”

“It wasn’t misfiled; it wasn’t lost because (Allen’s) name was entered as Richard Allen Whiteman in the tip database. The reason we didn’t find it was because on the tip someone wrote ‘Cleared.’ So, we put it in the file that it was cleared,” McLeland said. “The file was marked accordingly.”

“In 2021, we had a meeting with all law enforcement and said let’s go back and review every tip and see if we missed something. Kathy had the wherewithal to read the tip and say ‘’Hey this guy was on the trail that day. I’ve never read a tip with the name ‘Richard Allen,’ this is important.’”

Shank took the tip to now-Sheriff Tony Liggett.

“It clicked that this is the guy that everybody saw, and here we are,” McLeland said. “If there is a hero in that part of this story it is Kathy Shank and Tony Liggett.”

McLeland said learning of the tip left him with “a mix of emotions.”

“It was a roller coaster,” he said.

No one knows who cleared Allen’s tip in 2017.

“We don’t know to this day who wrote cleared. There have been thousands of tips and tons of people working on it. The tip that was entered had ‘Cleared’ written in red on it,” he said. “It doesn’t matter what his name was filed under; the point is someone wrote cleared on the tip.

“I’ve heard a lot of podcasts where they blame Dan Dulin. Dan Dulin is a good officer. He is thorough; he is a good officer. I don’t think we should focus on blame; we should focus on Kathy having the wherewithal to bring it to law enforcement.”

Shank, he said, spent eight to 15 hours a day volunteering her time “because she loves the (Delphi) community, and she wanted to help.”

“The only thing she is missing is an ‘S’ on her chest for Superman because she is a hero,” he said.

Roller coaster ride Once law enforcement determined Allen was a viable suspect, McLeland said he did not get excited.

“I’ve been working on this case for seven years in February, starting a year after (Abby and Libby) died,” he said. “It was six years of highs and lows. ‘Hey, we got this person,’ and ‘Hey we got this tip.’ You would ride the roller coaster up the hill, and it would be a huge letdown.”

When investigators told him Allen was a suspect, McLeland said to himself, “I’m not going to ride this roller coaster again; let’s see how this develops.”

“I was a defense attorney for nine years before I was a prosecutor, so my initial reaction to everything is alright, prove it,” he said. “I put that on investigators and law enforcement. I do that every time I get a case I say, ‘Alright prove it.’”

Lost phone When law enforcement gathered evidence from Allen’s home on Oct. 22, 2022, during the execution of a search warrant, something was missing. McLeland said investigators could not find the phone Allen was using in 2017. On that phone, there may have been potential evidence that could further connect Allen to the girls’ murders.

“Had we gathered his phone five years before (he was arrested) we might have gathered more information,” he said. “He had a collection of phones dating back to 1998, but he didn’t have that phone.

“He said he didn’t know if he had that phone or not. He said his wife may have recycled it. But that was a big piece of evidence that we missed an opportunity to collect. Had we followed up in 2017, we would have a plethora of information on where he was, what he was doing, all those things.”

The missing phone was important, McLeland believes. Allen kept in his possession phones dating back to 1998 leading up to the phone he was using in 2017. He also had phones in his possession that were used immediately following the phone he was using in 2017 and beyond.

“I don’t know if it was big to the jury, but it was big to me,” he said. “I mapped out the release dates of the phones with Christopher Cecil, looking at when was phones were released. We know he had (a phone) for at least this long, so the next phone would be the next release date.

“There were obvious gaps around the time around the murder where he had the phone after and before, but not at the time of the murder. It could have been a coincidence, but that was odd. That’s where we found ourselves.”

Doing it differently For McLeland, looking back over the trial he admits there are a few things he would do differently.

“Obviously the tip being overlooked for five years is huge and unfortunate,” he said. “It’s not huge for trying the case, but it is a huge thing for the family. We had to go an additional five years, that’s a big deal, and we can’t blame anyone because we don’t know who wrote ‘Cleared’ on the tip sheet.

“The only other thing is I would have someone testify about the pattern of life of Richard Allen while he was in jail; what he did day-to-day, to have more impact for the confessions.”

Having an account of Allen’s behaviors and actions leading up to and following his 60-plus confessions could have helped show the jury Allen did not make those due to being psychotic, he said.

“I don’t know how much weight jurors put into confessions,” he said. “Obviously they carried a lot of weight to us because I’m not sure why someone would confess to something they didn’t do.

“I think it would have more impact if we showed his day-to-day activities and showed that when he made confessions he was at normal behavior. I think we could have done a better job of that.”

Some of Allen’s confessions, in the form of phone calls to his wife, Kathy, and mother, Janis Allen, were played for the jury during the trial.

“We played phone calls showing how he is talking about the weather, asking how mom is, how is dad doing, how are you, how’s the cat, how’s the dog, and then he says, ‘Kathy, I just need you to know that I did this,’” he said. “There are 700 to 800 phone calls. We couldn’t play them all, that would be too much for the jury. The phone calls before and after, we should have played those to show this is normal, this is not under duress, and these confessions are legitimate; at least in my mind.”

When asked about why he believed in the same call Allen would confess his guilt and then ask, “What if I did it?” and say to his wife, “I think I did it,” McLeland said he believed it was because Allen did not get the reaction he had hoped for.

“If I confess to killing, and I’ve talked to my No. 1, which for him was Kathy, and you don’t get the reaction you expect, think about it,” he said. “He cares what she thinks. I’m using common sense and life experience, but I think we’ve all been in a situation where we don’t get the reaction that we wanted, and we fill the awkward silence.

“I’m not a conspiracy theory guy. I don’t buy into that. I buy into the most obvious answer is the right one. I know the facts of the evidence we have and use my life experience to evaluate a situation. When I see something, I call a spade a spade. I look for the most straightforward answer.”

How? The question many have asked over the last nearly eight years since Abby and Libby went for a hike on the Monon High Bridge Trail is “Why?” and “How?”

“How is the question I have been asked the most,” McLeland said. “I ask them, ‘Have you ever had a gun pointed at you?’ and ‘How would you react if you did?’ That’s a unique experience that not many people have or will ever experience.

“Most people are kind, gentle people. When someone points a gun at you and says ‘Do this’ … I have never had that happen to me, but I have an idea of how a 13-14-year-old girl would react.”

Individuals took to social media and YouTube to discuss the merits of the case, some speaking on authority on Allen’s innocence and guilt.

“I would sit back and say, ‘If you only knew the whole story,’” McLeland said of comments made online about the case. “I’m very much the person that I am not going to go on TV before a game and say, ‘I am gonna win this.’ Rate me as the underdog and play the game.”

Though social media didn’t bother the prosecutor, he said he hoped people would take into consideration what their comments do to the families.

“I would always think ‘Do you realize what effect this has on the family?’ That is the big issue for me because I know the family,” he said.

Carroll County is known for being a tight-knit community where neighbors help neighbors. It is also not unusual for familial connections as generations continue to reside in the area. McLeland said he never let those connections cloud his judgment.

“If that weighed into my decision-making then I would not be able to be the prosecutor,” he said. “It is not just this case. In every case I know the mom, the dad, I graduated with the sister or brother. It is such a small community. I know 70% of people I’ve prosecuted in one way or another. It had no effect besides it being more heartbreaking because I knew the girls before they died. I know their family; their family knew my family; it’s just a small community.

“I was born and raised here, and I feel very loyal to Carroll County.”

The Allens McLeland said like many in the community, his interactions with Allen and his wife Kathy were minimal before he became a suspect in the murders of Abby and Libby.

“Nothing besides going to CVS and Richard checking me out at the register,” he said of their interaction. “Back when he was there, they did not have self-checkouts.

“Richard and Kathy Allen were pretty low-key members of the community. They weren’t doing anything to bring attention to themselves.”

Steve Mullin

Investigator Steve Mullin joined McLeland at the Prosecutor’s Office and assisted with the case. He is more than an employee; he is also a friend. McLeland says he is hurt by the Defense’s accusations that Mullin is corrupt.

“Steve Mullin is (a) devout (Christian). When the Defense said he lied, that affected him in a personal way,” he said. “To call him a liar, if you know him, is just inappropriate. To say he lied, cheated, would steal, or is corrupt is inappropriate. He is one of the most honest guys I know.

“There is no other guy more devout than he is, and to call him corrupt, that cuts him to the core because he is not that person.”

Threats Threats against one’s character are uncalled for, McLeland says, but those are not the only threats his office has received.

“The threats are always indirect,” he said. “There is a guy in California who messages and says, ‘Looks like I have to come slash your tires.’ I get innocuous threats. You get people that say ‘What if this happens to your two little girls? What if I came to Indiana to do this to your girls?’ It’s a threat. It’s not direct, but it is still a threat in a roundabout way.”

Most of the threats and negative comments he said, are coming from individuals outside of the Carroll County community.

Hey Google If there was any evidence McLeland says he was surprised by during the 17-day trial, it was when the Defense’s digital expert, Stacey Eldridge, a former FBI forensic examiner and certified mobile device examiner, testified that something was inserted into Libby’s cell phone headphone jack at approximately 5:45 p.m. Feb. 13, 2017, and removed at 10:32 p.m. the same evening.

“Did the State expect that testimony? No,” McLeland said. “(The Defense) did a good job of hiding (what they were going to use in court). When I heard it, I thought ‘That doesn’t make sense.’ We saw it in the log, but again, it didn’t make sense. It just didn’t make sense.

“We gave those logs to the Defense, so we knew it was there. I did not know their expert was going to give that explanation, so that caught me by surprise.”

The State’s digital expert, ISP First Sgt. Christopher Cecil, examined Libby’s phone and extracted data from it on multiple occasions.

“Christopher Cecil, what an amazing ISP officer! The intelligence in that guy and the knowledge of digital forensics; he knows his stuff,” McLeland said. “We spent hours and hours and hours together. I believe the Defense thought that this was the reasonable doubt they needed. Whether the jury agreed or not, they didn’t buy into it.”

McLeland said with everything the State knew, common sense told them it was not possible someone physically plugged in a set of headphones in the port on Libby’s phone and removed it at the time the Defense indicated.

As Eldridge remained on the stand, Cecil got to work trying to figure out a logical explanation as to what could have happened. He searched Google and was directed to an Apple tech help site. Libby’s phone was an Apple iPhone 6s.

“It’s not the ideal situation,” McLeland said of the Google search. “I think Jennifer Auger did a good job of saying this is not ideal police work. You don’t just do a Google search, but when you are put in that situation, and the Defense does trial by surprise, that’s what you get.”

Noting the oddity of the search and its timing, McLeland said he still stands by the information.

“As reliable as Google searches go, I think it was reliable. And again, what he found was common sense. Jennifer Auger did a good job in saying you don’t use Google for a trial. You are right, we don’t. But when you spring this on us and don’t tell us ahead of time, this is what you get. To me, it is just a common-sense explanation.”

The Defense objected to Cecil citing his finding from Google in court, calling it hearsay. Gull overruled the objection.

“I don’t think it is hearsay because it is him commenting on the research that he has found,” McLeland said. “Some of (Cecil’s) testimony is based on research that he had, like the distance of a flight of stairs. He did research; it’s no different than that.”

Auger, McLeland noted, asked Cecil about the distance of a flight of stairs as recorded in Apple Health data. Libby’s Apple Health data showed she traveled two flights of stairs between Allen telling the girls to go down the hill and when they were murdered.

Apple Health Data The Apple Health data extracted from Libby’s phone was “very significant,” he said.

“Whether right or wrong, I bought into the Apple Health data and what it said. When you put it into the context of all the evidence we had, the Apple Health data coincides with all the data we had,” he said. “The fact the phone didn’t move after 2:32 p.m. was big.”

As to why Allen would leave critical evidence behind is anyone’s guess, McLeland said.

“What goes through a person’s mind when he kills two little girls – what goes through his mind after; I have no idea,” he said. “Common sense says why leave (the phone) behind if you knew it was there. I have no idea.”

What he believes is that Abby purposely hid the phone from her killer. It was not until crime scene investigators moved Abby’s body to process the scene that they found Libby’s phone under a shoe under Abby’s body.

“But for Abby, holy cow. (The phone) was a huge piece of evidence,” he said. “She is a hero in her own right.”

Without Libby’s phone, the investigation could have taken much longer, McLeland believes.

“To me, the video, the location of where it was taken, and the health app data are big pieces of evidence,” he said. “The video was powerful. If you think about the past eight years, what is the one thing you’ve seen in the media these past eight years? Evidence from that phone. It was huge, to me.”

Sealing records Except for the video recorded by Libby on High Bridge on Feb. 13, 2017, McLeland asked Gull to seal court records in the case. His reasoning – Richard Allen’s best interest.

“I wanted a fair trial for Richard Allen. I felt like if everything was out to the public we would taint the jury pool. That is why I was very tightlipped about talking to anyone,” he said. “I believe in our system, whether you like it or not, I believe in it. I did it so we could have a fair jury. I did it to protect him. No one is going to believe that, but that is why I did it.”

Franks Memorandum Keeping information from the public only lasted so long. The Defense would file their first of several Franks Memorandum in the case in September 2023. The court document, 136 pages in length, provided details on the crime scene, including evidence that had never been revealed to the public – a cartridge found between the bodies of the girls that had been discharged from a SIG Sauer gun, and the Defense’s belief members of a Norse pagan religion murdered the girls as part of a ritualistic killing.

“I appreciate his perspective, but I don’t agree with it,” McLeland said of Defense Attorney Andrew Baldwin telling media recently that legally they could not file the Franks Memorandum confidentially.

“It just goes back to common sense,” McLeland said. “We investigated every lead. There is not a lead we did not investigate. We used to say, if the lead has legs, we are going to go with it. That means going down the rabbit hole until we prove it or disprove it.

“I really think Odinism is a testament to investigators. When you first hear about it, it sounds ridiculous and investigators said ‘No, we are going to go down the road and investigate.’ They stayed with it until they disproved it. At the end of the day, I am glad to charge whoever is responsible for this. But you got to prove it. The defense could not prove it from our evidence, and we couldn’t prove it from our evidence. To me, that is the end of the story.”

A letter One of the investigators who looked into ritualistic killings was former Rushville Police Chief Todd Click, along with now-deceased FBI Task Force Officer Greg Farency and former ISP Investigator Kevin Murphy.

Click, wanting to be sure McLeland and investigators had thoroughly investigated the Odinist angle, sent him a certified letter after Allen’s arrest.

“If you read over it, it piques your interest,” he said of the letter. “I brought Todd Click in to talk and said tell us what you know. There is this theme out there from Defense-friendly people that I am corrupt and covering up for people. I would not cover for anyone who committed this crime.

“We called (Click) up and asked him to explain (his thoughts). I said, let’s talk about it. Give me your best pitch, if you will. We investigated it like we did everything.

“If I went to trial based on what I think happened, I would not win. You have to have evidence to support what you think happened, and we did not have evidence to support that theory.

“Is it a conspiracy theory that they all came together and committed these crimes, and no one is talking? Or is it that Richard Allen was on the bridge that day and decided to kidnap and kill those little girls? What makes more sense?”

Lost audio The Defense stated during hearings that missing audio of interviews completed by law enforcement of third-party suspects with alleged ties to Norse Pagan religion was reckless, if not intentional by the State. That audio is said to have been recorded over unbeknownst to investigators.

“Those interviews are documented in the reports,” McLeland said. “I don’t fault the Defense for making that an issue. It is regrettable that it happened, it was.

“Whether the Defense wants to believe the reports … I understand you want to hear the actual words. To me, it wasn’t an issue. I understand why the Defense wants to make it an issue. I was a Defense attorney for a long time. I would have done the same thing.

“There was nothing of merit to warrant a further investigation into other individuals.”

Enough to convict McLeland says he believed from the day he filed the probable cause and arrest warrant in the case, that he had enough to convict Allen for killing Abby and Libby.

The evidence he considered key was the cartridge found at the crime scene between the girls’ bodies. That cartridge was determined to have come from a SIG Sauer P226 handgun recovered from Allen’s home when police executed a search warrant in October 2022.

“For me, the ah-ha moment (for the State) was when we got the ballistic report, and the bullet matched the gun. I believe in that science; I just believe in it,” he said. “I didn’t have my team together at that time, but I believed the evidence we had was enough for an arrest and probable cause and enough for a conviction or I would not have filed.

“You never know what jurors are going to do. I don’t care if you’ve been practicing for two years or 50. If you could read a jury and know what they are going to do, that would be a skill we would all like to have.”

For McLeland, Defense Attorney Brad Rozzi may not have been reading the jury when giving his closing argument.

“There’s a point where in the Defense’s closing, they showed a rack used for medieval torture,” he said. “Sometimes you go too far, and you lose the jury. I could have objected; it was absolutely inappropriate (for them to show that). I let it go. Part of trial work is reading the room and seeing how people react. You have to watch the jury and how they are reacting. They are your audience. He was losing them, so I didn’t object. I thought, ‘Let them go this far, he’s going to lose the jury.’”

The van During the trial, McLeland said Allen confessed to a key piece of evidence that “only the killer would know.” That information, he said, came in one of Allen’s confessions to his Indiana Department of Corrections psychologist, Dr. Monica Wala. Allen told Wala he was spooked while he held the girls below the bridge. Allen said he had intended to sexually assault the girls but saw a van. He then chose to take them across Deer Creek and kill them.

“He doesn’t say white van,” McLeland said. “He says a van. People associate a white van because they see the photo of Brad Weber’s van.”

Carroll County resident Brad Weber lives at the end of a driveway that travels under the Monon High Bridge. He testified he was driving a white van home and under the bridge around 2:30 p.m. on Feb. 13, 2017.

It has been shared on social media that the information regarding Weber’s white van was on the internet making it easy for Wala to “feed” the information to Allen during one of their sessions.

“Was it out on social media … I wasn’t following social media, so I have no idea,” McLeland said. “The State’s perspective was we didn’t think that anyone knew a van had traveled down the road under the bridge at that time.”

McLeland said information about the van was learned when the State acquired access to Allen’s mental health and medical records from the IDOC.

“The judge denied (the State’s request for mental health and medical records) twice, saying it was privileged information,” he said. “The defense brought it up in pleadings, and the judge finally granted it.”

Wala testified in court that she had followed Allen’s case before and after he became her patient. The Defense used that information to attack her credibility.

“I don’t know if the jury believes she was reliable or not,” McLeland said. “We thought she was, that was why we put her on the stand.

“If you go with the Defense’s theory, she made all this up. What does common sense tell you? You go where the evidence leads you.”

Plea Deal

McLeland said he offered Allen a plea deal early on, but Allen declined.

“There was a plea deal,” he said. “It wasn’t a lucrative deal for Richard Allen. What are you going to offer a guy who kills two girls?”

Leaked Photos When asked if he felt the Defense intentionally leaked photos of the crime scene, McLeland said he would respect Gull’s ruling.

“We presented the evidence that we had at the contempt hearing and the judge found it wasn’t intentional, and I respect the Judge’s decision,” he said.

When he initially saw photos from the crime scene, he says he became emotional.

“I got choked up. What if it was your kids? That is what I want to say (to those who have shared and posted the crime scene photos). Put yourself in the position of the family and imagine seeing your daughter in that state. Just imagine it,” he said. I visualize my own two girls, and I mean talk about victimizing the victims. I think Becky Patty said it best, it’s generational.

“Every time someone Googles it … Think of Becky Patty, Derrick German, Anna Williams, Carrie Timmons, for them to have to see that in the public; to see it projected.”

McLeland said the Patty family was delivering food to those standing in line trying to get a seat in the courtroom during the trial.

“For them to have that strength (to endure the trial) and then people to go that day and badmouth them. They are what we should try to be like,” he said. “The Defense wants to talk about being human, those are humans. I don’t know that I could do that. I think I would be bitter and mean. But again, members of our community, this community, holy cow; they are something else.

Four Counts Due to double jeopardy, Allen could not be sentenced for the four counts of murder he was convicted – two counts of felony murder and two counts of intentional murder.

“I added intentional murder in January 2023,” McLeland said. “The felony murder I originally charged him with because I believe he kidnapped the girls, and they died. I had the other two counts added because I was at a point where that was appropriate to add because I felt he intentionally killed the girls.

“You never know what a jury is going to do. You present the evidence you have. I thought we had a strong case. I thought we had the right person that committed the offense. He was presumed innocent until the jury came back.”

To Richard Allen McLeland said he has nothing to say to Allen.

“I don’t want to sit down with him,” he said. “I presented the evidence we had in court; the jury found him guilty. If you believe in the system, as I do, what else do I need to hear?

“What answer could he give to give solace? No answer he could give me would justify or make it OK.

“I was pretty adamant at the press conference; I don’t want to say Richard Allen’s name again. He’s the defendant, the convicted. This should be about Abby and Libby and how amazing they were.”

To the families McLeland said he admires the families’ faith and perseverance over the last seven-and-a-half years.

“I applaud their strength and their compassion,” he said. “We should strive to be like them, we really should. What they went through, and not to be bitter … they are compassionate in the face of evil.

“Imagine what the family was feeling. I champion them for being there every day supporting us and obviously being as cordial and respectful as they were. I am not sure how I would feel if it were my kid.”

It takes a village

It takes a village For years, McLeland worked side-by-side with investigators, attorneys, and the families fighting for justice for Abby and Libby.

“I just want everyone to know I did not do this alone,” he said. “It takes a village; this took a village. Jerry Holeman, my staff, Stacey Diener, Jim Luttrell and Tony Liggett; I could not have done this without their help and support. They deserve and have earned as much praise and gratitude as I am getting. I could not have done this without them; all the investigators too.

“And Kathy Shank; talk about an unsung hero.”

Say ‘I love you’ In his years of working as a defense attorney, McLeland says he has represented “some of the worse (defendants) you can imagine.”

“It never affected me, and then I had kids,” he said. “You watch them take their first steps, say their first words, there is something about them that I can’t explain in words. It made me more emotional. Being a dad of girls makes ya kind of a wimp.

“The biggest effect (Abby and Libby’s case) had on me is every time I see my kids and loved ones, I think I better tell them I love them.

“When you look at your loved ones, never miss an opportunity to tell them ‘I love you.’”