Notes from the Delphi Defense Team's Appearance on Lawyer Lee

I watched this interview and abandoned my notetaking. But since it's January and I have literally nothing else to do, I went back and completed it.

- The host introduces each guest, and then herself and shares the mission of her program.

- Lee asks Rozzi how he was appointed to the case.

- He replies Carroll County has a short list of public defenders, and he was on the list for the region for high conflict or high-profile cases. He was initially contacted by Judge Diener and later Judge Gull. He agreed to accept the case as long as he had a say in who his co-counsel was, and later recommended Baldwin.

- Lee asks Baldwin how he was appointed to the case.

- Baldwin jokes about Rozzi not knowing him and how he probably regrets bringing him in. He points out Rozzi omitted the part of the story where he initially contacted Stacey Uliana (now one of Allen’s appellate lawyers), who declined, but recommended Baldwin.

- Baldwin picks up the story by saying he had just resolved a major case before it went to trial, freeing up his schedule. He was contacted by Rozzi, and later Judge Gull. She indicated this would be a high-profile case, he agreed to join Rozzi.

- Lee asks Auger how she was appointed to the case.

- Auger says she was aware two girls had been murdered in Delphi, and her conservative sister thought they had the wrong guy. One of her colleagues through the Bar association relayed to her some of the challenges Baldwin was experiencing with the case. She reached out to him to offer encouragement and help if needed. A few months later he called her back to ask if she could help with Touhy requests and some forensic pathology. She agreed, and says she’s glad she did because it was an amazing opportunity to work with Brad and Andy.

- Lee says they are quite the team and it’s impressive how lawyers from three separate firms were able to collaborate and divide the labor in order to move the case forward.

- Lee indicates she traveled to Delphi because she was shocked the third-party defense involving Odinism was excluded. She asks what everyone’s thinking was, and offers Rozzi a chance to answer.

- Rozzi appears startled and states he is deferring to Baldwin if the topic is Norse Pagan religion.

- Everyone laughs, and Lee asks Baldwin how the issue of Odinism arose.

- Baldwin says in March of 2023, he was approached by his law partners, who informed him they wanted him to focus solely on the Delphi case. He thanks his law partners for their unwavering support. A friend reached out to him to offer assistance, and he hired him to print off hard copies of digital evidence for Baldwin to review. He came across a twelve-page report from Kevin Murphy about Odinism, which seemed to provide context for some of the other documents he had previously reviewed.

- Rozzi interrupts and tells Baldwin he needs to tie this into what they discovered in the hallway.

- Lee interrupts to explain to anyone new to the case, they are discussing whether Odinists were involved in the murder, and whether or not some of the scene was left in such a way as to indicate Odinists had been there and left symbols and runes which would have significance and meaning to them.

- Rozzi is seen taking a drink, which appears to be an alcoholic beverage.

- Baldwin explains he examined photos of the crime scene prior to discovering Murphy’s report, and speculated the report might clarify the placement of the sticks on the girls’ bodies. He claims upon review, the report ultimately did provide an explanation. He declines to name the third party suspects contained in the Franks memo, but indicates they are all listed in the document. He goes on to say they began to investigate the people identified in the report from Murphy and other documents and then “the world really started to expand.” He mentions disturbing social media posts, including photos which mimicked the crime scene. He points out information about the crime scene was a tightly kept secret at the time, and they appeared on the social media of someone who had a history of direct contact with one of the victims. He explains the the division of labor was organic, and Rozzi was assigned to work on the confession and ballistics evidence. Baldwin points out Rozzi is definitively not a conspiracy theorist, he is the exact opposite. He says Rozzi was not buying the Odinism theory but would appease him with discussion about it. They agreed if a motion were to be filed concerning the topic, and they would both have to agree on the final draft. He turns to the events of April 3^rd, where they had traveled to see their client a few hours after he started his “so-called confessions.”

- Rozzi takes another sip of his beverage.

- Baldwin explains they were in Westville, in a new consulting area, and while they were waiting for their client he was attempting to explain to Rozzi “the Odin stuff.” The guards who brought in Allen that day had patches which read “In Odin We Trust” and had the interlocking triangle symbols. Baldwin took videos of the guards’ patches for evidence. They found Allen to be incoherent, he thought his wife was in danger, and so they wanted to see his cell. They walked to the Captain’s office and Rozzi confronted him about the guards’ patches. The Captain claimed to have no idea what he was talking about. Baldwin left and went to speak to one of the guards wearing a patch, and asked what the meaning of it was. The guard explained Odin as a Norse pagan deity and gave him a dirty look.

- Lee asks Rozzi, as a skeptic, what he thought when he first saw the patches.

- He replies he was unfamiliar with the topic, but shortly after the visit, he began to do research on white supremacist groups. He was concerned when he learned the patches being worn by guards which symbols were banned for inmates. So learning about this piece information made him more receptive to the validity of the Odinism theory. Shortly after, Todd Click came forward with an 85-page report which included a three page synopsis of what he believed to be the sequence of events surrounding the crime.

- Baldwin takes over and says he remembers the call from Rozzi about the document.

- Rozzi says he does not have a creative mind, so he is slow to accept ideas without proof.

- Lee explains when she initially read the document brief related to the guards, she thought there was a mistake when the guards were listed as having the Odin patches. Then she was shocked when the prosecution admitted it.

- Lee asks Auger what her response was.

- Rozzi takes a drink of his beverage.

- Auger explains one of the first things she did after being assigned the case was to read the Franks memo. She was initially highly skeptical of a “murderous group of Odinists running around Indiana.” Then as she dug into the supporting documentation she realized it was true. She points out one of the prison guards had a tattoo of Odin’s spear on his cheek. She goes on to note one of the guards signed an affidavit which said the person was not an Odinist, but a believer of Nordic Pagan heathenry. She says Nordic Pagan heathenry is Odin (likely meant Nordic Pagan heathenry centers around Odin).

- Baldwin says he can help explain why they thought this was a plausible theory early on. Once the individuals were associated with the movement, the team made contact with known associates of those individuals. They informed the legal team of certain activities, some of which could be corroborated in their case management system. They investigated and determined the people they were focused on were bad people, doing some very bad things in the area before, during, and after the girls were murdered. So that lent credence to the Odinism theory.

- Baldwin points out prior to April 3^rd, they had never seen those two guards in question before. The vist was also the first time Allen was being video recorded while being escorted around the facility, so they noted all of the odd circumstances started on April 3^rd. While trying to have a confidential meeting with their client, they were told they were not allowed to do so unless it was recorded on video and Allen was facing the camcorder. He points out for those unfamiliar with the prison system, those conditions are bizarre. He points out law school does not prepare you to deal with a case involving Odinist suspects, and your client being guarded by Odinists in a prison he ought not to be in.

- Rozzi chimes in to say with the circumstances being so unusual, they would’ve been stupid not to investigate the matter further because it was impossible to have so many coincidences.

- Auger adds her understanding at around this time was that there was an Odinist movement in the area, to the extent there was a tattoo parlor right on the courthouse square called Odin’s Den. (note: This was a tattoo shop opened in 2019 called O’Den’s Tattoos, and they did a fundraiser to contribute to the Abby and Libby Memorial Softball Park) Link to Tattoo Shop Article.

- Rozzi said they did not allege or have proof of any wrongdoing or abuse by the IDOC employees, but he has trouble believing it is a coincidence Allen showed signs of distress at the same time as these other odd circumstances arose.

- Baldwin adds one group of Odinists had strong evidence and nexus to the crime scene. He believes the person who had the mimicked crime scene photo on social media was a practicing Odinist; he has a direct connection to one of the victims, he has a buddy who lives within a mile of the crime scene, and Abby had been to one of their houses prior. Baldwin understands people think they’re idiots for believing in this theory, but they’re perplexed as to why no one is seriously investigating these connections.

- Rozzi proceeds to explain how in the discovery process they were trying not to reveal their strategy, but through the depositions they discovered LE thought these to be viable leads. He claims at that point, the defense was like a steam train moving forward with Baldwin driving and Rozzi along for the ride. He points out there were officers who invested hundreds of hours into investigating an Odinist connection, and they approached Unified Command to say greater resources were needed to look into those leads. So initially the theory came from the documents found in discovery, their own experiences, and then gained traction when they learned the State had researched the possibility. It was further solidified based on testimony from some of the officers they deposed. And then he claims Professor Turco from Purdue legitimized the theory with his deposition.

- Lee asks about Brad Holder and Patrick Westfall.

- Baldwin answers and says he was not publicly naming suspects included in the Frank’s memo in his interviews. He indicates Holder’s is linked because his son dated Abby.

- Rozzi takes a gigantic swig of his beverage.

- Baldwin explains how they were suspicious of Holder’s social media activity, and claims the State were aware and failed to pass along this pertinent information in discovery. Instead, the defense team was alerted by web sleuths of Holder’s activity. They strategically did not reveal their awareness of the Odinist angle of the case in order to prevent LE from covering-up the cover-up if a cover-up was what was occurring. He describes the trip to Georgia with Matt Hoffman and Max Baker as a “guys retreat.” He says the purpose was to meet Ryan Boucher (he misspeaks and says Bryan) to view and authenticate the picture he had. Baldwin describes the photo and says “it’s two girls, on the ground, one is positioned like Libby was positioned and they have branches (gestures across his torso) -- and the branches are not an exact match. But Libby’s pose was on one of the girls.” He explains there was concern LE would not confirm Boucher had been in contact with ISP Trooper Winters in 2017, so they also collected some digital evidence which verified his initial attempt to report his concerns with hopes of having the photo admitted into evidence for the trial. Baldwin explains the process of deposing several investigators (Trooper Winters has a fuzzy memory about the photo, then ISP Detective Roland Purdy recalled it). Then on July 30^th, they filed a motion to dismiss and Purdy testified he was no longer sure it had been on Holder’s Facebook page. Baldwin confronts him with his testimony from August 2023, and his testimony from two days prior, and highlights the discrepancy.

- Baldwin says he knows he is talking at length; he apologizes, and everyone laughs.

- He continues to explain how he is very passionate about this particular aspect of their defense, and says they presented evidence about the bodies of Abby and Libby being moved without leaving drag marks at the crime scene. This led the defense team to the conclusion two people had to lift and place each body to avoid causing drag marks. He links that interpretation of the crime scene to Holder’s Facebook post three days after the murders, where he shares a meme from Goodfellas. The meme depicts Henry Hill and the caption is about true friends helping move bodies. He alludes to other suspicious activity on Holder’s Facebook, and then mentions Elvis Fields, which he would like to cover later. He says he’ll shut up for now to give others a chance to converse.

- Lee asks Auger about Dr. Wala, the confession where RA admitted he had intent to rape Abby and Libby, the significance of the white van detail, and trying to impeach Brad Weber’s testimony with his initial field interrogation (FI) by an FBI agent and an ISP investigator.

- Auger corrects her by explaining it was actually FBI Agent Adam Pohl and Hammond Police Officer Christopher Gootee who had interviewed Weber. Per Gootee’s report of the FI, Weber said he did not come straight home on the day of the murders, but serviced some of his ATM machines. So she highlights Weber was giving inconsistent statements early in the investigation.

- Rozzi interrupts by pointing out this was all within the first week of the murders.

- Auger agrees and says she does not even recall it being a full week, but Weber gave multiple inconsistent statements within days of discovering the crime. The intention was to subpoena Agent Pohl, but his election security duties in Texas left him unavailable. So they reached out to Gootee with the hopes he could testify to the contents of his report since Pohl was unavailable, but Gootee declined. The defense team reached out to the FBI, and the FBI attorney explained Agent Pohl was diagnosed with a DVT (deep vein thrombosis – a blood clot in a deep vein, which runs the risk of causing a pulmonary embolism, which is very likely with air travel), and he is not able to fly to Indiana to testify. The filed a motion with the court to allow Pohl to testify remotely. There is no mention of whether Pohl was able to travel there by other means or was asked to do so.

- Baldwin interrupts to say Gootee’s actions were shameful, and suggests he refused to testify because he was aware of how the white van detail was a key piece of evidence in the State’s case.

- Rozzi explains that during the deposition phase, Weber testified he did regularly service his ATM machines after work. He characterizes the discrepancy as great evidence for impeachment. He then comments about one of the jurors speaking out earlier in the day (this live stream occurred on 1/10/2025, the same day which MS released a two-part conversation with one of the jurors). He speaks about how the juror reported the Weber white van detail had significant weight in this case. He has observed a great deal of reporting about the white van detail, but the confession was just about a van, with no color listed.

- Lee and the other guests all agree with that statement.

- Auger points out the only statement/confession which contains any detail comes from Dr. Wala. She describes RA as a man “in a cage” and this occurred during one of the rare times he was not recorded on video or audio. She states that Dr. Wala claims RA makes these statements which she writes down, she enters them it into his EMR (electronic medical record) after an unspecified period of time and shreds her handwritten notes.

- Baldwin says “allegedly” in the background a couple of times as Auger describes Dr. Wala’s testimony of her activities.

- Rozzi points out Dr. Paulie Westcott commented on how something feels unusual about Dr. Wala’s documentation, because the narrative allegedly given by RA is too logical and ordered. Rozzi remarks everyone acknowledges his client was in a state of psychosis, the behavior was recorded on video and audio documented symptoms of psychosis, and he believes it was impossible for RA to communicate a cohesive narrative. He speculates perhaps Judge Gull did not believe RA was in a state of psychosis despite all of the mental health professionals/witnesses agreeing he was in psychosis during this time.

- Baldwin brings up Brian Harshman, and then begins to talk about Dr. Wala.

- Rozzi smirks and empties his beverage.

- Baldwin describes Dr. Wala as a Delphi fanatic, and says she could’ve been reading Reddit, where vans were discussed all over social media topic groups from 2017 to 2022. He hypothesizes she could’ve collected that information from Reddit and then planted it in a conversation with RA or it might be a total fabrication on her part. Baldwin admits he knows it sounds crazy but he believes it is a legitimate possibility because of the unusual nature of Dr. Wala. He changes the topic back to Trooper Harshman, who testified that the van detail was not publicly available information at all. Baldwin points out there were a couple dozen Google results which showed public conversations about vans as they relate to the Delphi trial. He complains about Mullin’s testimony, and he felt LE officers who testified in trial were permitted to take the stand and make multiple statements which had no truth. He then complained about the rebuttal testimony to the defense’s headphone jack activity, characterizing it as a “nuclear bomb dropped at 3:06 pm.” He says no one cares that they were allowed to present such informal and laissez-faire evidence as Google searches, and investigative journalists are failing miserably by not pursuing this topic.

- Lee says she remembers Baldwin exited the courthouse and made a statement to journalists to do their jobs. She talks about Rozzi being responsible for the confession evidence and the prison conditions. She asks when he first learned about the confessions and what his reaction to the news was.

- He says to the best of his recollection, he received a call from Kathy Allen, who was highly distraught. She acknowledged RA was saying things she didn’t want to hear and the statements didn’t make any sense to her. Per KA, he didn’t seem like himself, and in the lead-up to their conversation he seemed like he was not the person she had been married to for decades. Rozzi contacted Baldwin to discuss the issues, and then they traveled to Westville. He says this was around the time they discovered “Rick had kind of walked off the cliff” psychologically, emotionally, physically, and April 3^rd was an intense day.

- Lee asks about the defense team adopting the approach of talking about Allen’s incarceration conditions, since she had never seen this approach taken, and she asks how he came up with that strategy.

- Rozzi explains how it is important for attorneys to be informed and try to understand what might be causing unusual or novel situations. He speculates that RA could have been telling the truth, was just distraught, and wanted to quit. He also theorized he could have been pressured by someone, or the environment and circumstances pressured him to confess. He addresses the audience to say if they don’t believe false confessions exist, he respects that you are not receptive to evidence to the contrary. He goes on to say if they do believe that false confessions are a possibility, you are also conceding there exists an environment and circumstance which causes people to make false confessions. He educated himself on the subject of false confessions, and found all the elements required to elicit a false confession existed in Westville. He comments on the reputation of Westville Prison and points out IDOC is building a new facility directly next door because it was deemed insufficient to house convicted offenders. He says he will not assert he knows with absolute certainty that RA made false confessions, but says only RA knows. He relates the former warden had never heard of a pretrial detainee being held at Westville before. He remarks on the literature and current understanding of the false confessions principles, and says that although RA was under extreme scrutiny and constant surveillance, no one observing his decline intervened to assist him.

- Lee points out RA is back in Westville and asks whether he is in solitary confinement.

- Rozzi replies he believes so, based on what he can see in his case management system regarding RA’s detention circumstances, but his legal team and family do not have contact with him.

- Lee asks why RA has no contact with his family.

- Rozzi explains RA had an unusual in-processing experience as a convicted offender, and the Allen family was told by IDOC it would take six to eight weeks before he would be able to contact them, which is far longer than the typical offenders moving through the system.

-Auger volunteers she believes the IDOC regulation specifies convicted offenders should have access to contact family within two weeks of arrival.

- Rozzi says this is consistent with his knowledge of post-conviction detainees, and says the six to eight week estimate represents negligence, at the very least recklessness or intentionality. He emphasizes the prison system has major shortcomings despite the fact humans are capable of global communication.

- Lee asks Rozzi if he sees this as a conspiracy against Richard Allen or just an administrative issue.

- Auger jumps in to say RA has not been treated like anyone else or any other pretrial trainee or inmate in the state.

Continued in Part 2